Terry Collins, Sandy Alderson

There is more to a manager than wins and losses

There is more to judging a manager than wins and losses, Sandy Alderson told WOR radio before Wednesday’s game.

“It’s how the team approaches each game and how it conducts itself over the course of an entire season,” Alderson said. “All those things are important.”

According to multiple reports in early August, Terry Collins will very likely return to manage the Mets in 2015, assuming they don’t totally fall apart before the end of the season (MetsBlog, Aug. 13).

The Mets first signed Collins to a two-year deal in late 2010, his option was picked up for 2013, after which he signed a two-year extension, which includes a team option for 2016.


miniMCavatarMatthew Cerrone: I don’t fully understand why he’s a lock to be back, even if the team finishes slightly below .500. But, I’m OK with the decision, as long as Alderson keeps an open mind as next year gets rolling >> Read more from August 14.




105 comments
howinnb
howinnb

how does one measure success? how much patience does a mets fan have? we have seen no improvement and no success since we inherited the alderson/collins duo. I think the mets can be better than their record? Am I just hoping? without success we need change. mets management if you want to win-then win.do something positive. we cannot keep waiting for next year.

2ndhalffun
2ndhalffun

TC is a puppet!!! "Sandy is it time to wipe your azz"

mvmet
mvmet

Balderson must of been out in the sun too long

Michael Paulsen
Michael Paulsen

5 years it will be if they bring him back next year. 5 years. I'm lost for words


Nick Squatrito
Nick Squatrito

Yes there is more to managers than wins/losses. Things like managing a bullpen, knowing how to set a lineup, and knowing how to manage your pitching staff is also important. Terry doesn't know how to do any of those things. No one is blaming Grandy and Wright having terrible seasons on Terry. But he doesn't bring anything else to the table as a manager. He can't get his team fired up like he used to, he's a mess when it comes to the post game conferences. He's run his course here. And I can guarantee hell never have another.managing job when he finally gets canned because he brings nothing else to the table

Eric Vierow
Eric Vierow

19 teams in baseball have a better record than the Mets.......why is it a safe guarantee that TC will return? Unbelievable....only Mets ownership being so cheap and absolutely broke would make this man safe!

truth77
truth77

Bottom line here is Granderson batting horrible and striking out twice a game.Wright batting horrible and striking out twice a game is a formula for failure.First thing I said when they got Granderson another strike out machine in the lineup.Cant win games when the other Teams best pitchers know there is at least 6-7 strikeouts a night not including the Pitchers.Mets need to  go out get a low strike out guy that can once in a while hit it out .Until they bring in the fences in, power hitters are not in the Mets cards.Giancarlo Stanton is going nowhere .We got this kid Reynolds,Herrara,Conforto coming real soon with the pitching we have and a few contact hitters picked up next Year we will be fine. Terry Collins has made some bonehead moves but last I checked his is not in the line up for the Mets.

Keith Allen-Verdi
Keith Allen-Verdi

How it conducts itself after an entire season..umm after 4 years it has a losing record every year

The Third Lantern
The Third Lantern

Ugh, it's just another reason to wait for 2016. No Wally = no tickets, no concessions, no parking, no mlb.tv, no cable Extra Innings package, no merchandise. I bankrolled this morass long enough.

rstpigeon
rstpigeon

So, what's next Sandy, Sabermetrics for managers? We deconstruct players every conceivable way beyond what we had with old baseball cards. All we have for managers is how well players do with him at the helm and you can't show me that any of the pitiful players on the Mets would be more pitiful if it wasn't for Terry Collins. Can you?

Kenneth Meltsner
Kenneth Meltsner

I swear, Matt, I think you post stuff like this to get a reaction. And it's fairly obvious how most people think.This team has been a shade less than mediocre for eight straight years now. Another meaningless August and September. What can you say about a manager whose ONE (1) act of strategy is occasionally batting the pitcher 8th? Wow! (And I'd be curious to know what our record is in those games). But what most Met fans find truly galling is that there is no guarantee the team will be better in 2015. Sure, the pitching has improved. And the kids in the pipeline seem talented. But Gee and Niese have taken a few steps back this year. And who knows what Harvey is gonna be. Plus, is anyone confident in Sandy's ability to judge position-player talent? I sure am not. Just look at the legacy of failure during his tenure. Best find was Marlon Byrd. And that's it.

Robert Hess
Robert Hess

But it is the ability of the manager & the coaching staff to have the players play good fundamental baseball - which the Mets do NOT.  How many times do you allow Murphy & others try to steal 3rd for no reason.  Very simple - guys do not try to steal unless they get the steal sign.  They can't bunt, can't hit & run, can't field (especially the pitchers, can't hit the cutoff man, etc., etc.  Yes Sandy has started to build a strong pitching staff but with little offense they need to do the little things, the fundamental things to score runs.  Pitching, defence and speed can win games.  And lastly smart management of the pitching staff over the course of a 162 game season.

Eddie_Dean
Eddie_Dean

I really wish someone would ask Sandy, "At what point does Terry have to manage this team to a .500 or better season to keep his job?" Basically, how many seasons of finishing 10 games under does he get before someone new at least is given an opportunity?


Honestly, even if they suck again next year, what's to make us think Terry will even be gone by 2016? (he has a club option for that year, btw) I honestly thought heading into this season that Collins couldn't possibly survive to 2015 if they had another ~75 win season, but I was wrong there I guess. Why would I think next year will be any different?

cleonsvan
cleonsvan

In other words, there is no accountability in this organization. As long as Terry does what Sandy tells him, he'll be the Mets manager.

Giving Collins a pass because of poor talent is like giving Sandy a pass for the low budget. They took the job knowing what it was and promised that they can still be successful. Both failed miserably


There is more to being a GM then getting good players. Sandy is an example.

flmetsfan
flmetsfan

Yup, they're the best sub .500 team this year.

You know what that means Sandy?  They're not on the verge of being a contender, like the Marlins, and they're not going to get good draft picks like Minnesota and Philadelphia.

So what do you make of the Mets Mr. Alderson?

Oh, and please don't tell me about the awesome farm system.  It's like a parent telling a child on a road trip that "Grandma's house is just over the next hill."

Marc Singleton
Marc Singleton

Anyhoot. I'm done with the Mets until spring training, when I'll be foolishly cautiously optimistic all over again, only to see it all come crashing down as the season progresses.

Life is unpredictable. Its comforting knowing exactly what to expect out of our NY Mets.

Bill Donahue
Bill Donahue

Alderson says its how the team approaches each game. 

The Mets approach is one of boredom.

The fans are bored, the players appear bored

and Collins looks bored.

mettle
mettle

There is more to managing the Mets than winning games, says Sandy.  And you can ask Terry as soon as he's back from picking up Sandy's laundry.

mike23
mike23

“It’s how the team approaches each game and how it conducts itself over the course of an entire season,” Alderson said. “All those things are important.”



Sandy, you can go too and take the Wilpons with you!

mike23
mike23

There is NO reason that Terry should be brought back as manager of the mets in 2015. His history of being mediocre should not be something the mets want to continue with going forward. The mets have some bright young players on this team and they should get a fresh start next year with a winning philosophy and make it a new beginning, enough of this mediocre mind sets and lack luster play. 


I don't see how the mets can bring Terry back, it will just show once again they are content with mediocrity and have no vision for this team. 

BerryBeltran
BerryBeltran

For all you pure optimists out there (I am mostly optimistic but have my moments)


This is why some Mets fans are so negative with this franchise. Why is it that only the Mets view a manager differently then almost any other team in every other sport. 


“It’s how the team approaches each game and how it conducts itself over the course of an entire season,” Alderson said. “All those things are important.”


How do you explain almost making baseball history with 5 games with 4 hits or under? Is that showing a bad approach? How about some of the mind numbingly dumb mistakes this team makes? How about some of the reactions from Jon Niese? The Jordany Valdespin incident last season, Terry's handling of Lagares and Flores?


Why is it Terry is given a complete pass as this team goes into its 4th losing season without any visible improvement from  77, 74, 74 three year slide? This team might not win more that 75 games this year? How does this manager continue to get a pass when I guarantee almost any other team in a major market would of cut ties already.


The Mets have two more wins but two more losses compared to this time last year which means they are still on pace for 74 wins. How do you expect fans to be excited when Terry Collins is going to be the longest tenured Mets manager in team history without a winning record, will be 66 by next season, and has never been a successful manager?


What is wrong with this franchise right now? What are they trying to accomplish? To me, its currently not about winning


andrewf
andrewf

Sorry, has the team been conducting itself well this year? Are we watching the same alternately sloppy and sleep-inducing Mets?

Peter Loibl
Peter Loibl

I love the Mets. I hate the Yankees. But the answer to Matt's puzzle is plain and simple: the Mets, under the Wilpons regime, accept mediocrity. Period. 


Can you imagine the Yankees giving extension after extension to a perpetual losing manager? 


I am rather disgusted ... not because Collins is a bad man, but because he is a horrible manager that gets multiple chances without ever delivering results of any positivity. 

gpopper
gpopper

So tired of this double talk from Alderson. He's a snake oil salesman, period. I could go on and on, but it's all been said before 1000s of times by everyone. Excuses just flow out of the front office, time after time. Collins is a lousy manager. The wins and losses show it, his constant mistakes in field managing show it, his inability to utilize his bullpen in a sane manner show it. It is of course, the players fault for note performing to standard, but it is the manager that either succeeds or fails in bringing it all together. Four losing seasons is a testament to this organizations incompetence, from the players to the owners. Niese's "whining" fans demand it and without those fans, kiss the team goodbye.

MetsFan1962
MetsFan1962

Geez. . . TC must have the goods on Sandy and the Wilpons. TC at best can probably be a good minor league manager but he doesn't impress me at the ML level. His career W/L record is .489. How does this make him the guy to want besides being "Affordable"?

DMA1968
DMA1968

The manager position is beyond overrated.  I don't have an issue with Collins being here as much as I am tired of one excuse after another.  I hate that they take us fans for chumps by insisting its not about the money when it is 100% about money.  They have zero financial flexibility.  


Even the Royals and Pirates always admitted it was the money/small market.  I don't believe for a second that we need a 160 million dollar payroll to be competitive (Omar and Al Harazin proved that) but you need to have wiggle room so when someone hits the open market, you can make a serious effort.  

tango01
tango01

This is what drives me crazy with Sandy when it has to do with Terry Collins. This is Sandy's comment on how Terry Collins will be judged, Alderson said: “It’s more than wins and losses. It’s how the team approaches each game and how it conducts itself over the course of an entire season. All those things are important.”

I'm mean seriously? Now if you told the media in Spring training that you expected 90 wins and Terry manages another 75 win season then who is at fault? Sandy for not building a better team or Terry for managing another 75 win season or both. They both need to take blame. This was the year Santana and Bay's money came off the books. Sandy had 4 years to start improving the major league ball club. We still don't have a Short stop, and a left fielder. Sandy even had an all star short stop in Reyes and let him get away for nothing. I believe this whole organizational hitting approach Sandy implemented on hunting strikes has also contributed to the lack of hitting.
Now after 7 losing seasons and 4 under Sandy and Terry regime you stand there and tell the media you will not be judging Terry by wins and loses but how the team approaches the game. It's been 4 years and the team is still not fundamentally sound. Terry makes head scratching bullpen moves, lineups and double switches. Terry continues to get out managed. After 4 year this team has not shown any signs of improvement. You can tell Harvey has tuned him out, Niese hasn't been happy with him. He has not held players accountable. Does not rest players like Murphy or Wright until they are so tired they are slumping or injured. Terry has not taken 1 team to the playoffs in 10 years of managing. He has managed teams with talent and the manager who took over took his old team to the playoffs. It's time for a new voice.

Jay Cross
Jay Cross

Does Sandy plan on giving WFAN an interview so the 90% of radio-listening Mets fans can hear something from the organization? I know PR isn't this team's core competency but blackballing WFAN seems unconscionably foolish. 

Also, why hasn't Sandy given an interview to MetsBlog in four years of running the team? DePodesta ran a personal blog before, and we get nothing from them? 

ken1010
ken1010

I think that statement is reflective of the fact that Alderson appears to value process over results.

That's a disease of many large corporations and I've seen many companies drive themselves off a cliff doing this.

Somebody wake Sandy up and tell him that making money is important, and to do that he needs to win at the major league level.  That's what puts fans in the seats.  As many people below note, Terry is not a winning manager.


jsecurity
jsecurity

It's the dog chasing its tail. Wins put fannys in the seats. Keep losing and no one shows up. A GM and a manager set and are measured against those goals. Didn't 90 wins come from SA? .500?

IMO TC should go. Poor handling of bullpen, in-game decisions, handling of kids, lineups, etc. seems to me some of the players have lost respect for him.

Sal
Sal

The bottom line is that despite all talk of it, there is no accountability in this organization.


If a player performs awful, it's because he's just not that good.  If a manager keeps playing that player, it's not his fault because he's been given players that are not that good.  If the team put on the field doesn't win under that manager, it's not the manager's fault because "there's more to a manager than wins and losses."


And if a GM cannot get his major league team to win, it's not his fault because the owners don't give him enough money.  The owners won't spend money, but it's not their fault because they were "swindled" by a criminal in a Ponzi scheme.


Shouldn't we be past this dizzying set of excuses for failure?  There is enough talent rising in this organization that we should now expect winning baseball as we go forward.  


Stop blaming Madoff and hold some people accountable for their failures.

robby
robby

The only thing he does well is listen to Sandy even if he's wrong.  He has no choice because nobody else wants him except Sandy 

ken1010
ken1010

Apparently, the key to a good manager is that he follows orders from the GM.  No doubt Collins is excellent at that.  Win's, well apparently that doesn't matter so much.

xplr
xplr

Other than underproducing. what exactly has TC done that would merit anyone hiring him as manager?


Answer: Nothing

Nick Squatrito
Nick Squatrito

Things Terry does well: Make sure all Lefty's are going against Rights and all rightys are going against Lefty's regardless of how hot a pitcher/hitter is. Make sure that anyone who's hot gets the day off because being hot means they're tired and needs a day off

matmil
matmil

My fear is that SA and Collin's will continue this philosophy of adding these high strikeout power hitters and we will end up in the same place next year. It won't be enough power and they won't be able to win the low scoring close games that their good pitching usually gives them. I'm hoping for a completely new direction offensively.

matmil
matmil

You have hit it on the head Robert. I agree completely. Collins appears to me a one base at a time home run hitters manager. Not what the Mets need right now. He has never made anybody accountable for the dumb plays. And your absolutely right about the poor fundamentals. At best he is a mediocre manager at worst completely inept.

matmil
matmil

Only one thing that the fans can do. Stay away from Citi and hope an empty stadium will wake some people up.

Kenneth Meltsner
Kenneth Meltsner

@Peter Loibl Agreed! What can you say about a guy who pinch-hits Bobby Abreu THIRTY STRAIGHT TIMES without a hit? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result.

Zach Goeringer
Zach Goeringer

@ken1010 what is disturbing to me is that our gm seems to cite process over results during his weekly explanation of why we stink. Yet the only thing that is worse than our results is the process in which we go about it.

Rodney Pelletier
Rodney Pelletier

Right on. Someone needs to change the aura around this team.

ny12jets
ny12jets

@ken1010 From last year to this year, what has Sandy given him.  Granderson (to bat clean-up) and CY.  And, they will most likely win more than last year.  Is he the greatest manager, no!  But, the hitting talent is horrible.  No changes to stimulate the team at the trading deadline since Sandy has been here.

ny12jets
ny12jets

@xplr Under producing with under whelming talent? 

ken1010
ken1010

@ny12jets @ken1010 I agree that talent is key, and there is not much here.  I've heard it said that a manager is worth plus or minus 5 wins.  Even a great manager like Gil Hodges or Davy Johnson in his prime would not have this team at 90 wins.  But watching Terry, I'm convinced he is a slight negative.  I'd bet Wally would be better, but he's not the type of manager Sandy would like.

Jimmy McNulty
Jimmy McNulty

He has the kids come up (d'Arnaud, Flores) bats them 8th in the lineup and expects them to succeed.

Why couldn't Collins fix d'Arnaud's problems at the major league level? Isn't that a coach's job to help his guys succeed and make corrections?

Don't even get me started on his bullpen management